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"A Little Bit Of English" is a blog written and run by Yeshiva University students. We aim to make this blog the best source for in-depth analysis of the tournament and allow readers to follow the tournament on a whole new level. "A Little Bit Of English" is a forum for open discussion about the happenings of The Red Sarachek Tournament. Ideas expressed herein are not the official opinion of Macslive or Yeshiva University. A Knight's Tale Moshe Kook Published on: 03/08/2010
Sarachek is just around the corner and that can only mean one thing: CONTROVERSY!!!! Last year it was Ida Crown not being invited and Valley getting the one-seed, and this year the hot topic that is burning up our comments section is the seeding of the Yeshiva Or Chaim Knights out of Toronto, Canada. That’s right. Our neighbors from the Great White North feel they were slighted by being put at the 14th seed, out of range of Tier-I. I plan to break down the argument from both sides and let you be the judge, because, frankly, I’m getting sick of all the e-mails that a new comment has been posted on the site!!!
I’ll begin with a little history. Last year, at the 18th annual Sarachek Tournament, the Knights came in as the 14th seed and proceeded to win the Tier II championship – although not quite as easily as easy many of you would have us believe. On Thursday, YOC beat #19 Block by 7 points, on Friday they beat #9 Montreal by 4 points, Sunday they defeated #12 Weinbaum by 3, and then blew out #11 seeded Cooper to take home the Tier II crown. So yes, while they did beat some teams who were seeded higher, this was not dominance. It was good, consistent play but could they kept up with the likes of Ramaz, YULA, or MTA? Probably not.
Last year’s team was led by the big center Yonah Dorfman, G Eli Hershkovitz , G Rafi Rosenberg, and F Azari Shumacher. How many of these players are returning to this year’s team? Zero. That doesn’t mean the Knights are without leaders and stars. Akiva Maresky, Yishai Kurtz, and 2008 6th man Yadin Koschitzky are all featuring for YOC this season; and Maresky is dropping a cool 18.5 PPG. To avoid any controversy on the previous points, a lot of that information was taken from answers sent to MacsLive by the coaches of YOC-I’m not just pulling this stuff out of a hat. With a number of players who saw significant minutes last season, the question is:
Does performance in Sarachek matter from one year to the next in terms of seeding? In Premier League Soccer, the top 3 teams from each division move up and the bottom 3 move down. Should Sarachek operate that way? Should the Tier II winner automatically clinch a Tier I berth the next year? Let’s investigate.
“Only when a team returns all or most of its top players does a previous year's Sarachek performance factor into how they are seeded the next year,” says Jon Bandler, member of the seeding committee. Now this reason seems to be the best as to why a team isn’t seeded higher just because it won the previous year. Take a team like Ramaz or Berman who ARE returning many star players and you see that the seeding is based largely on the makeup of the team. It is hard to disagree with Mr. Bandler on that one.
But the question is: how much weight should be attributed to the makeup of the team? After all, what really matters is how the team performs as a unit, the sum of the parts, not the parts themselves.
When reached for comment, Akiva Maresky, Yadin Koschitsky, and Yishai Kurtz came forth with the following statement: “Are we better than last year's team? It is hard to say. But last year in our league we lost to the #1 team, Mother Theresa by over 40 points. This year we lost to them by 12. Last year we lost to Cardinal Newman. This year we beat them twice, including a 20-point victory in the quarter finals. Both years we were placed in the B division for the playoffs and we got just as far both years, losing to the same team in the semis. Yes a few of our starters did graduate, but that happens every year. As a matter of fact, only one player from last year (Tier II MVP - Yonah Dorfman) was a starter the year before. And look how well we did last year.”
What this tells me is that YOC’s style is to mature their juniors as role players and start them as seniors. With this being the case, it becomes a little tougher to judge an Or Chaim team from year to year. Yes, juniors can play side roles but it seems that it is not until their senior years that they become key players. This one looks like a point for YOC.
Bandler added that last year the middle of the pack teams were weaker than this year’s teams. This might be the key to the entire argument and one that we, as bystanders, can’t really weigh in on. The seeding committee takes their job very seriously. They follow each team during the year and consider all the facts, statistics, and intangibles when it comes to the seeding, so if they say that this year’s field is stronger, we have no choice but to believe them. The five New York teams this year are five of the top six teams in the Yeshiva League. Chicagoland went to state sectionals. Shalhevet and Berman went deep into their league playoffs… and the list continues.
Without knowledge of all these other teams, do the Knights really have a claim in saying they are better?
Do I know if Or Chaim has a better team that Beren or Shalhevet? No. Do I see the merits if the arguments on both sides? Yes. Do I think that YOC will win Thursday and get into Tier II? Well the laws of percentages and averages definitely lean that way. And then there is a good chance that they will play a lot of the teams that they feel they should have been seeded above.
The absolute bottom line is that whether you agree with the seeds or not, YOC will get their chance to get on the hardwood and leave it all on the court. I’ve been a part of the Sarachek tournament for 10 years, as a fan, player, and now as a member of MacsLive, and I know that all that matters is how you play on the court. I also know that the Knights always bring it whenever they come to the MSAC and I know that while they don’t need any more motivation, they’ll be playing with some extra fire come Thursday at 11:30 against the Akiva Pioneers. I wish them and all the other teams the best of luck as they get out there and prove their worth in front of hundreds of fans and even more listeners across North America.
#2 - A Little Bit of Engilsh @ 6:43 PM on March 8th 2010
@Ramaz Fan
No doubt Ramaz is returning the exact same that won Sarachek last year but you can't argue with undefeated. HAFTR is 14-0 and you can argue semantics like opponents all you want but the bottom line is they didn't lose and that is why they are the 1 seed. And as you pointed out, the difference between 1 and 2 will be negligible at the end of day. Thanks for the comment!
#3 - Ramaz Fan @ 7:42 PM on March 8th 2010
HAFTR did lose this year (according to you guys, since you say in one of your stories that they are 27-1), just not in the Yeshiva League. Ramaz is 22-2. As we all know about high school basketball, record mean very little unless you look at the opponents. (Heck, Or Chaim fans are saying that you should disregard their 4-9 record because they play very tough teams.) The non-NY teams all have at least one loss, because they play in state leagues that finish with tournament play -- and they play top non-Jewish teams. YULA has come into Sarachek a number of times as the top seed despite having more losses than the top Yeshiva League team.
Point taken that HAFTR and Ramaz play in the same Yeshiva League - BUT, and this is a key point, there is no interdivisional play in the Yeshiva League this year. So their win-loss records are as much indicative of the strength of their schedules as it is about how good of a team they are. (Of course, both teams have played a number of non league games, in which they have played common opponents.) Considering that the win-loss records are so similar (in a league with no interdivisional play), and considering that Ramaz is the reigning Sarachek champion (returning its entire team, only better), why can't they leapfrog over HAFTR in the Sarachek seedings? (And I'm not putting forth the argument that they should be ranked higher than HAFTR in the Jewish Hoops America Top 25 Poll.)
#4 - scoophoop @ 10:09 PM on March 8th 2010
Ramaz fan, I was waiting for your best argument. You almost made it but not quite - HAFTR's one loss this season was to....Ramaz. We considered that but in the end, HAFTR's 27-game win streak, impressive no matter who the opponents, was the key.
#5 - scoophoop @ 10:35 PM on March 8th 2010
The article metions the "controversy" this year and dredges up last year's "controversy". Both are really about the same thing - in high school sports, how you did in a tournament the previous year should have no bearing on how you are seeded - or whether you even make the tournament - this year. The reference to professional soccer is a bit of apples and oranges. Sure they have some obscure, outrageous transfer deals but essentially a pro team is the same one year to the next. In high school, you're always graduating players.
Ramaz Fan's point about the Rams coming back with the same team, if not better is valid, except there was nobody in last year's field comparable to this year's HAFTR squad. Seeding can't be done in a vacuum and it can't be done based on history.
#6 - scoophoop @ 10:44 PM on March 8th 2010
The article metions the "controversy" this year and dredges up last year's "controversy". Both are really about the same thing - in high school sports, how you did in a tournament the previous year should have no bearing on how you are seeded - or whether you even make the tournament - this year. The reference to professional soccer is a bit of apples and oranges. Sure they have some obscure, outrageous transfer deals but essentially a pro team is the same one year to the next. In high school, you're always graduating players.
Ramaz Fan's point about the Rams coming back with the same team, if not better is valid, except there was nobody in last year's field comparable to this year's HAFTR squad. Seeding can't be done in a vacuum and it can't be done based on history.
#7 - Jake @ 11:42 PM on March 8th 2010
Ok, now can you please explain why ALL the Los Angeles were seeded to play each other in the first two rounds?
#8 - josh @ 11:48 PM on March 8th 2010
its a little ridiculous how there is only one la team that will advance past the first two rounds. They come all the way to New York to play teams 30 minutes away
#9 - Uriel @ 7:21 PM on March 9th 2010
Watch out for monster swingman Josh Sturm of the YOC Knights to take control of this year's tourney! With his 6"2 muscular frame, strong outside shot and his preternatural ability to drive through traffic and draw contact while maintaining body control to get the ball up to the hoop accurately, baskets should come aplenty for this fast-rising Canadian star.
#11 - OJH @ 11:54 PM on March 9th 2010
The Or Chaim juniors Are some of the strongest basketball players in the history of the school. Let me give you a little background on these players. Adin Wagner also known as the "A-Train" has one of the dweetest jump shots I have ever seen and yes I am including are beloved NBA, you give him the ball anywhere on the court he's guaranteed nothing but nylon. Josh Sturm known for his famous catch phrase "Must Be Nice" is a force to be reckoned with, he is faster then anyone on the court and with his long legs he will beat any man to the bucket every time. Daniel Gofine also mistaken for Harry Potter, is a big inconvenience for any opposing team with his raw power and size if he's going to the basket my suggestion take a seat because he's not missing. Zev Gasner world renowned MacDaddy, although his playing style may seem a little unorthodox let me tell you it works, and amazes all. Ariel Piwko and David Barth also known as the Swiss Disaster Duo, show true hustle and although you can't understand them majority of the time you will realize when they've taken you to school. Ari beck, and Ori Herrmann are unfortunately sitting this tournament out so every other team should consider themselves lucky because these two are always ready to play. So please stop only analyzing our Seniors because if you stop and realize how strong our Juniors are you will notice you have made a terrible mistake and get ready for Or Chaim to take home the Tier II championship once again
#12 - Stunna @ 6:07 PM on March 10th 2010
@ojh
you wrote this? please answer me on facebook u should know who it is. as for the sarachek seeding committee why didnt they just do themselves the favor of avoiding controversy surrounding the same team two years straight and seed the mwhere they should be seeded for once? you cant blame the knights for not going far in their league they play guys and teams that go on to challenge for national(granted its canadian national but national) championships every year. just one seed higher wouldve given the knights the chance they want at tier one and i dont think thatr was so much to ask for
#13 - Stunna @ 5:07 PM on March 11th 2010
50 points. or chaim shouldnt be in the same building as some of the teams in this tourney. 14th seed? the tournament seeding committee should be embarrassed. all they can do now is watch as the knights continue to prove them wrong for the 2nd year in a row.
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HAFTR was insulated in their own Yeshiva League division -- Ramaz played a tougher schedule but only has one more loss than HAFTR.
Isn't there a strong argument to be made that Ramaz should have been the top Sarachek seed this year? (I think the Rams' claim is stronger than the Knights'.)
(Not that it matters, of course. The seeding difference will probably have little effect, if any. In fact, depending on matchups, being the second seed could wind up helping the Rams if they match up better against one opponent over another. But for the sake of this discussion, don't they deserve the number 1 seed?)